With everything moving onto an online platform, we wanted to discuss on the importance VR and AR are playing in our everyday lives—especially now.
In this Alley Webinar, we take a closer look at companies who are leading their industries in Virtual Reality, Augmented Reality, and Mixed Reality.
In this event, our panelists, Nate, Ben, Adaora ,and Chris, share their companies’ real-world innovations and programs that help encourage the growth of the use of new interface applications.
- VRARA, an international organization that promotes collaboration between innovative brands in the VR and AR field, to help foster research and education, develop industry standards, connect member organizations, and promote the services of member companies.
- Ario is a productivity software that increases safety and efficiency in industrial environments by leveraging augmented reality to give teams the ability to create and share spatial information in real time.
- Evercoast is advancing the creation, compression, and distribution of 3D holographic, volumetric content to be used in augmented reality, virtual reality and the web, on mobile or desktop environments.
- Chris Pfaff Tech Media is a New York area consultancy that supports the needs of global technology and new media entrepreneurs in the areas of market and business development, strategic marketing and public relations and investment consulting. Chris Pfaff Tech Media supports ventures from launch to re-launch, and from transition to spin-off. The company’s clients include self-funded start-ups, institutional venture capital-backed ventures, strategic/corporate ventures, incubation-stage companies, as well as global accelerators.
- RLab is the nation’s first city-funded center for research, education and entrepreneurship in virtual and augmented reality and related technologies.
We hope this Webinar can introduce to you how simple it is to implement their technologies to help make your company run more smoothly during this online season.
How VR and AR are Saving Industries Everywhere
No matter how big or small your company is, it has most likely benefitted from AR or VR—and can do so in the near future.
Here are some ways that this field is stepping up to the plate:
- Content management systems
- Training your company, your team, or an industry
- Ensure best safety practices from some industries
- Provide engaging and dynamic learning experiences
- Using virtual reality imaging to help consult experts in your team who are not there in person
- Streaming your content in real-time
- One-to-one (or group) communicating like Zoom, Skype, etc.
And with companies in this field off to the races to try and come up with more and more developments to help other businesses achieve their goals during this time—with innovations in computer visualization, advanced algorithms, and things like LIDAR sensors—the sky’s the limit.
Affecting Your Company
So, whether this is the first time your employees are working from home, if you’re in the tech industry and are looking to converge with the field’s brightest and most innovative minds or if you’re simply wanting in on this growing industry, this Webinar brings the advice, insight, and product lines of expert panelists—right into your home (and headset).
At Alley, our team is focusing on supporting our community digitally by sharing resources and hosting video events. We hope this event and our entire event series can help keep your business stay connected to the community, move forward in development, and grow with intentionality.
The speakers provided excellent resources to help you get started in the AR/VR world (even if you don't have a headset). Check out some of the many resources discussed in this panel.
- Doodle Lens - Bring your dreams to life through the power of augmented reality! DoodleLens turns your flat sketchpad scribbles into interactive, animated 3D AR characters, scenes, and stories!
- EchoAR - A cloud platform for augmented reality (AR) apps that provides tools and server-side infrastructure to help developers & creators build better AR apps and grow their businesses.
- SentioVR - Virtual Reality marketing software being used by the world's leading enterprises. SENTIO VR is a self-service platform for Architects and 3D artists to present their designs in Virtual Reality.
- Poplar - A platform that makes the production of AR campaigns simple, quick and affordable.
- Virti - An award-winning immersive, enterprise learning solution for healthcare and beyond. Virti allows for creation and cross-platform distribution of interactive, immersive (VR, AR and MR) educational content and provides analytics that intelligently predict how a user will perform under pressure before entering a real environment.
- MeetInVR - Danish firm that offers a collaborative, real-time VR collaboration platform
- Glue Finnish firm that offers remote access to shared team resources, with 3D graphics
- LivDeo - A firm that delivers AR and web VR experiences for mobile users for museum experiences
- VRARA Meetups - Stay up to date with the VRARA events by following their twitter!
Ario Connect allows teams to easily call one another, share expert advice, and offer timely and topical guidance through the use of augmented reality tools to ensure their workflow can continue despite where everyone is located. With so many teams working remotely in light of the COVID-19 outbreak, we wanted to lend a hand by offering Ario Connect for free for the next 90 days. There’s no catch or obligation. If you think Ario Connect will make maintaining daily operations easier, please fill out this form to get started.
VR AR Association. We're an association that has thousands of executives around the world who are practitioners in this space. And, you know, in here in New York City, we're bringing together everyone who's who's involved in it, to meet on a regular basis nowadays online, and to discuss what's going on in the industry and to make sure that, you know, it grows as much as possible.
Terrific. And over to you, Ben.
Hey, Ben Nunez, co founder and CEO of Evercoast, where computer vision and spatial computing software company focused on volumetric capture we've taken something that's been done on Hollywood stages for years now and brought it made it something that's scalable, portable, can fit into a conference room, a couple cameras on a laptop up to 20 or more cameras, full body, full body, captures of volumetric content.
Very cool. And Ben is sitting in front of one of the Evercoast rigs if you're wondering what that awesome background is. Adaora?
Hi there. Thanks for inviting me and greetings to all the panelists and all of you. My name Adaora Udoji. I'm the Director of Corporate innovation and the director of venture and entrepreneurship programs at something called RLAB. Essentially, we're a consortium of universities, NYU, Columbia Community the new school and our number one focus is to encourage the growth of the use and application of these new interfaces, whether they're 3d technology or spatial computing, and other future interfaces. And we do that we run entrepreneurship programs, we have education and training programs, and we're essentially convening across all holders, investors, corporate entrepreneurs, students, faculty, and we're doing it both in New York City across the country and all over the world.
Very cool, and last but not least, Chris who's obviously joining us from the Golden Gate Bridge.
Hi there. Welcome from the Golden Gate Bridge, otherwise known as upper Montclair, New Jersey, immediate ghetto 12 miles west of Manhattan. I run a consultancy Chris Path Tech Media LLC for the past 20 years. We work with early to mid stage ventures and quite a few you would know in the XR space including the likes of Felix and Paul Studios, among others. We do quite a bit in Europe and are working with several companies. They're also one of the founding members of the New York chapter of the VR Air Association. I'm currently the cochairman of the storytelling committee. And I was one of the founders of the Producers Guild of America New Media Council and I served for five years on the board of directors of the PGA and I'm happy to be here today on this bright sunny afternoon and wishing you all nice virtual time.
Awesome. Thank you all for joining us. Thanks again to our attendees. So today, we're going to be talking about VR and AR. And obviously, we're living through some pretty strange and unprecedented times. And this is an industry that is kind of uniquely positioned to be reshaped in certain ways by this crisis to address certain problems that are coming up right now. So we're looking forward to having a really, really robust conversation with all of our amazing panelists on those topics. So just to kind of get started and dive right in, we have a quick question that was actually submitted in advance from one of our community members, which is how do you feel AR and VR products are positioned to, you know, really be deployed during a crisis like this, and that's specifically I think, with regards to remote work, but also more generally, I think, Nate actually has a really interesting use case. For this over at Ario so if you wanted to kick off, Nate.
Yeah, sure. So. So we our platform essentially is kind of two pieces. And the way that it operates is it's a content management system where you can create your documentation, your workflow procedures, and all of this is specifically tailored towards industrial environments like manufacturing energy and utilities. The whole premise being that you can upload all of your your knowledge that you lose as people leave the workforce, and it sits in this knowledge base. And then you can go out into the environment and spatially tag it and associate it with objects, so that when other individuals come into that environment, it's almost like having an expert there with you. differences is that you can be doing it by yourself and your your competency is then really raised. And what we're finding is is as part of our suite, we basically have it also a video calling application. It's pretty similar to any video calling application that you would normally use like FaceTime or mobile zoom or anything like that, but the big difference differentiators that you can place into the environment of the color the the person that needs help, you can put into the environment 3D models that are static or animated. Or you can utilize a library of icons that animate that we have that are arrows and diagrams and things to help guide the person that's, you know, remote from you through what they're doing. And the reason why this is very valuable is because it's not just drawing on the screen, it's actually utilizing the point cloud information that's generated inside the call. So that when you put the arrow down on the object, say, someone's aiming their their mobile device at a gas valve, you're looking for the shutoff valve, and someone sitting in a room like myself, and they're there, they dropped the arrow into the environment, it sticks on the object that the color is in. And so, you know, in a time like this, where people are not allowed to travel on site to help service and answer these questions, I think it's an inflection point where we're finding these tools are seeing an uptick of of necessity, that's as opposed to, we want to test it and we want to try it, it's now we don't have an option, we were going to use FaceTime or we're going to use something that can give even greater contextual situational awareness. And I think that's what we're starting to see with our business right now. So we're already on that track. But I think that this accelerates timelines a little bit.
Yeah, Nate, I mean, I can, I can definitely dovetail on that. Because we also have seen a pretty significant uptake in the past couple weeks of interest and sort of remote experiences. The ability to connect like, this is great and sort of, you know, 2D video, but what does that look like in the future? How do we create more immersive content, more immersive experiences? You know, we're sort of hearing that even from Eric from the airline industry that you know, when this does pass that the consumers will, you know, the consumer travel will likely come back, you know, strong people are going to want to get up you're going to want to travel but businesses are really learning how to, you know, conduct business remotely and so what and that airlines are concerned that the business travel is not gonna come back very strong. And so what do what does the future of sort of content communication look like in a world where we have virtual reality and augmented reality devices and so I can echo that that sentiment that we're seeing, you know, from, you know, whether it be an EDM Music Festival that's been, you know, totally shut down and can't do anything and DJs around the world can't really connect with their fans that they're using YouTube live to be able to do some of those things. But using volumetric capture and other augmented reality or virtual reality experiences, significant interest in that to hedge funds who you know, have billionaire clients and are always looking to impress their clientele. They were you know, we're talking to somewhere interested in shifting, you know, headsets to client and being able to stream your content in real time to conduct their quarterly or annual meeting to you know, household name, you know, massive developer conferences getting canceled. How everyone's kind of still in. There stood in one upping the competition. And so how do they incorporate immersive technologies into that process? We're definitely seeing interest in that too.
I would agree. Yeah, we're in bed. Yeah. thousand percent, which is to say that, if nothing else, the level of awareness, I think has just gone through the roof. I mean, I've spent years working with all sorts of corporations, fortune 500s. And a lot of times, the question becomes, what's the use case? How does this add value to my business? And how do I sell into my business? And then how do we scale it? It's abundantly clear right now, for many companies that there are a variety of different tools across sectors, whether we're talking about healthcare, clearly an opportunity they are, which is enormous, one of our accelerator companies. It's a British company that was signed to deal with the NHS, which is the largest health care system in Europe, to trained thousands and thousands of healthcare workers around cobit. Now, that's just a fact. application that's happening today. And they've been in conversations with them. And clearly, the need was abundantly obvious at this point of why they would need to engage in that manner. And we're seeing that across the spectrum, which is to say, even with an architecture of VR firm, they've seen find our biggest deals like in the last week, because they have both a VR application, but they also have a mobile app, or a mobile device application. So you have all these architects who are at home, and now they can conduct work in a way that they couldn't previously because they have these new tools. So I think we could go through each industry and each of industry. So the teams that look at these new technologies or look at them very differently, because post this crisis, they're going to have to reconfigure how they're thinking about what innovation means and what this next generation of technology means whether we're talking about VR and AR or 3D technology, right, or cloud processing power or their generation of data, like say for AI training devices to identify objects. So there's this whole bucket of converging technologies. And I think Nate, they create some fascinating and really important tools. And Ben is doing some incredible work with, you know, volumetric, which is certainly, you know, 3.0 in terms of communicating like in the future. So there's tremendous opportunity to miss this, you know, terrible, terrible crisis.
Yeah, we're seeing a lot happening in virtual meetings, particularly with companies in Europe, beaten VR as a Danish company that we know quite well and they, they're certainly seeing an uptick. And as the name would suggest, they facilitate meetings and DR Glue collaborative actually was lucky enough to have their VP of product on our storytelling committee call last week he on the left get in, who's locked down currently in Helsinki is we're all locked down. And they've been doing a lot of work with the of course industrial clients and even the military throughout Europe and working with headset manufacturers. So we certainly have seen in the last year, a massive increase in the number of companies, particularly in Europe, who are doing some very high level, both volumetric and virtual, particularly through through AR, you know, kinds of applications for the kinds of things that Nate is doing. But I think that, as we saw, after 911, the few months after 911, there was already there already been a lot of usage. So going back to something that Ben said around the hedge fund crew, who were using Polycom, and trying to look cool and hip, being in the same room together. Now we're all in the same room. There are hundreds of us on this call, but Polycom, saw a huge growth spike in the months after 911. And I think you're going to see the same for a certain group of us who already have headsets or those who might just order them online today. But I think the idea of enhanced you know, virtual leading something that's more intense than just a Skype call. I mean, we're using zoom today. But if we were to do this a year from now, it might be some new VR package ever even heard of. So, yeah, obviously, it's gotten to that point.
And you know, Chris, I think something that you bring up there, that's a great point, and that we've gotten a lot of questions about from people who are attending is, you know, you bring up people who have VR headsets. So I think what everyone what we're hearing across the board here, right is this crisis is bringing renewed interest and a shift in perspective to how VR and AR can be deployed, whether that is, you know, with regards to increasing human to human connection, especially like some of those use cases, Ben was talking about whether it's workplace collaboration, but at the same time, you know, how, how ready Are we really to deploy these solutions now? And what are the biggest, you know, obstacles.
I saw Darcy's question about, you know, headsets and certainly remote work. I mean, when you consider that corporations like Walmart had bought a huge number of headsets. That was at the end of 2018. Obviously the US Army, I mean, you know, certainly the fortune 50 have been doing this now for a year or two, I would think that companies, as we speak are considering orders, whether it's for HoloLens or it's for Oculus quest, or even, you know, solutions that might be low grade Web VR. I've been very bullish about Web VR for several years. And I think that you're going to see more democratization of virtual work in the coming year. And that's another opportunity for government to work with startups to to facilitate this the rollout.
You know, from my perspective, just to jump in, you know, there's the reality that in terms of hardware, there's only 7% ownership of AR VR sensor glasses. Right? That's according to Accenture it, they look at, you know, nine major countries. And so that's the reality I think we have you know, we have well over 100 participants right now, if we made the stipulation that everyone had to throw on their, you know, their headset right now and have this in all space or whatever other platform software out there, I don't think that, you know, the majority are over 50%. Chris I would venture to guess that all of us speaking on the topic have VR headsets at home. I have multiple but I don't know that it's true for everybody out there. And for any company that wanted to institute remote work, you know, and Chris brought up Walmart, you know, which shipped over 17,000 Oculus go headsets to to their brick and mortar for training purposes. But as of right now, you know, is the industry ready? I think it's a no and and it says no from several fronts, right. For one in terms of the way this industry has marketed itself to to its detriment has been video games. And if you go on Google and just do an image search on virtual reality, and just take a look at the images that you see there, for the most part, it's video games. And it's also just a single solitary person with a headset on. Right? There's almost no representation of a group experience inside of virtual reality or AR. Right. So in terms of how people view this is very much shaped by us in the industry and what we're putting out there. Meanwhile, according to you know, a center and other studies, most people when they think about immersive they want to use it for very practical purposes. Number one is travel, learning new skills as number two, you know, you don't get to video games until it's the bottom half of that list. And so this is a real wake up call for the industry itself. I think what we're seeing is a lot of inbound interest from people who are stuck at home saying wait a minute, I'm starting to feel even just a little claustrophobic, you know, virtual reality does amazing job with just alleviating claustrophobia, and taking you to another place. It's one of the reasons why I recommend everybody try VR on a on an airplane, you know, if you're stuck in an economy all the way back in the back of the plane, throw on an Oculus go. And you'll go from, you know, middle seat economy to center seat in an IMAX movie theater. It's amazing in what it can do for you emotionally and in terms of connecting you. But again, you know what the current solutions are out there. And there are a lot of amazing solutions out there in terms of co working, you know, avatar, who is a member of the VR AR Association have a great platform. And there are dozens and dozens there's like 50 options as far as software to download right now and co work with your friends. The issue is at at the end of the day, you yourself are represented by what amounts to a video game character. A lot of these software software is built on actually video game engines, and it feels like a video game. So you're a weeble wobble person In this world, which doesn't necessarily cut it for the T suite, in fortune 100 companies, so the bummer is, you know that the closest thing we've gotten to the future is second life. And second life is, you know, 10 years ago or more, right? The graphics haven't necessarily advanced that much. And when you think about how people see their identities and what they want their digital identities to be, it's a very personal, very passionate topic for people. I think if anybody's changed their emoji, just even the thumbs up emoji on their iPhone, to a different color off of say, Simpsons yellow, right? That's because your digital identity is very important to you. So for the majority of people who are out there working even remotely, what I enjoy right now, right is I'm just stipulating you're seeing me you're seeing my eyebrows move. You're getting that right. But in in a second life, world, whatever that application may be in VR, you're losing a lot of those dynamics. You're gaining a lot of other things, right. You're creating a lot of really magical things. And there's a lot of pluses right now to co working immersive here today, but we have some very real hurdles to overcome. Now that we have, you know, all eyes on us and the spotlight is on the industry where a lot of people are stuck at home saying, I think this may go on for another couple of months, what can we do? But the fact of the matter is, if you want to buy a headset on Amazon right now, chances are it's sold out. There's not enough supply and the software that is available, there isn't necessarily going to deliver to consumers what they had been told to expect. And I would hope you know, the feet to the fire for a company like Magic Leap that put out amazing Hollywood produce demos that don't necessarily match the actual today experience in the headset.
Well, and I'd love to actually, you know, pass that that over to Ben because I think Gordon, those are all like incredibly salient points. And I'll also say that's an awesome travel tip. I did not know my Oculus when I left New York and obviously regretting that, because that return
Free upgrade. Anytime you travel, grab one of these, they get on the plane, everyone's wearing their silly neck. Everyone's wearing pajamas and neck pillows, you know, you don't have to worry that you're looking to you're gonna be the smartest one in the room. If you do it, everyone will move. Everyone will move away from you too, you'll have an aisle to yourself. Go ahead, Ben.
I was just gonna add that, you know, from our perspective, volumetric content is device agnostic, and whether it required that, you know, it's great, it's great to consume inside of a virtual reality headset, great inside of an HoloLens inside of a Magic Leap but it's also, you know, very suitable for two dimensional devices. So augmented reality on a mobile phone just using the 2D screen on a mobile phone on a monitor. You know, we're here in Brooklyn, just down the block from the guys looking glass. You know, they've got a volumetric display that doesn't require any sort of virtual reality has. You know, we've all been at conferences and people are putting on virtual reality headset after virtual reality headset. It's not, no one's gonna want to do that anymore in so you know, just just given germaphobes you know, so I think, you know, I think I'm with you completely Gordon that you know work, I think we're still a ways away from having any real material market with people who have, you know, VR headsets, Walmart did purchase 17,000 Oculus headsets they trained over a million of their employees in virtual reality. And that's, that's wonderful. And I think there's, there's a huge market for that, inside of the enterprise, you know, in the consumer, anything is completely different. But, you know, three dimensional content, really three dimensional content can be consumed, you know, using using existing devices that we have today that don't require anything new. And so, you know, from our perspective, we're just trying to enable the creation of that content at scale make that really easy, because it can be much more immersive where we're, you know, other use cases. You know, you you started this whole conversation off with Kind of a question around use cases, that's what everybody, you know, wants to wants to talk about is what are the use cases for all these things. You know, another another big one is in sort of retail and fashion and just being able to go in and being able to try on clothes without actually having to try on clothes, getting your body captured, not just as a scan, but actually a little bit in motion. So you can see how close you know, drape off of you and flow. You know, because people are, you know, people's shopping habits are going to change. Security. We've seen we've had 2D fisheye lenses up in corners of rooms for a long time, you know, lots of blind spots hard to consume. But the ability to capture, you know, using using lidear scanners is using depth cameras to reconstruct an entire room that needs to be monitored remotely now, using three dimensional you know, using a three dimensional render is is you know, can be done on a Dd display and doesn't actually need a virtual reality headset. So there's lots of use cases that don't require any sort of headset until Apple put something out that we all you know that everyone's gonna buy like a like the watch was.
I wanted to answer a question Darcy had about artwork, obviously Cultural Institutions are opening up their archives, particularly art exhibits. And, you know, we're seeing a company we've been working with lift eo, which is now locked down to invest this whole front. But they have been in New York, they have a great AR solution. I know we've been talking a lot about VR, but, you know, we we do have the magic of our Android and iOS devices. And they've got something that basically does localization and enables full access to exhibits and I think that I would hope to Ben's point that we would get to something that's a little bit more powerful on the head mounted display, or even goggles side of things that that gives you a fuller experience for for that both for education as well as for cultural institutions. I mean, they're, they're going to be hurting quite badly. I would, you know, certainly implore all of us to to go take advantage of, of what's on their sites and I think that that will create some new business models for them in in the the after crisis period. But But yeah, it is it is still, you know, we're still talking about expensive devices, even if you can get a less than hundred dollar go, even if it's something that's on the resale market. But if you know, people have to make considerations for a number of devices, you know, we still don't have that power. And I think we'll be waiting a little longer for Apple to come out with something a little bit more powerful in the AR VR space. So that's for that.
I want to follow up with what Ben was speaking about. So I think it's really valuable to step back for a second because there are a couple are so many different layers of this conversation. I mean, I think it's important to think about AR and VR as a sort of subset, right of spatial computing and all of these other applications, and I think, you know, Ben, you, you spoke about that. And I think it's really important to think about consumer and enterprise as radically different universes in terms of what the value is to the individuals and into the marketplaces. And I think it's also important to think about people who went into this crisis with actual hardware and software at at their disposal, and people who don't, and what that might look like this moment today, and then what it looks like moving forward. At the end of the day, right now, to Ben's point and Nate's point there are plenty of applications that you can download right now today sitting at home that can further your business and or that it will be entertaining to you. I have two favorite apps. One is Wonder Scope, which is voice activated. And it's a little fun game. It's a little animated AR funny little game. Then the second one is doodle lens where it's a very simple creative like AR animating tool. And it's just fun. It's just fun to play with. And then there are a whole series of various 3D technologies that are used for a variety of different cases and to VR would be an architecture case, we can go down the list, the point is just that there's a bucket of these new technologies that are driven by innovations in computer visualization, advanced algorithms, LIDAR sensors, we can go down the list of I think of it as a big refrigerator of all of these various innovations that we're putting together, you know, VR, and robotics and so on, so forth. So there are things that people can use right now today. And then there are the VR applications, consumer and enterprise and what I see a lot of is right now very active in the enterprise space for education and training. And clearly a lot of that not happening right now, outside of perhaps what I mentioned in healthcare, right, trying to get a lot of people up to speed very quickly around how to deal with this crisis. But we know that consumers, not a lot of people have headsets at home globally, they just don't. We're nowhere near what scale might look like on the consumer space. And the same is for AR. But having said that, again, there are ways to experiment with it. And what I think what is happening and definitely in the conversations I've been having in the last couple of weeks, is that there's a greater openness by corporates to be taking a look at all of these variety of technologies, which are on a continuum and start considering them very seriously. I mean, it's too late right now to go out and buy a bunch of holo one, or holo lenses right and use spatial or another collaborative platform. That's incredible. It's incredible. It's totally Jetsonville. But if you don't have that hardware, you can't access it in the same way, at least not at this point. And so that's a separate generation of those technologies. And I think we're going to see a lot more attention and a lot more money being spent by these organizations to figure out how can I actually use this in a meaningful way.
So I'd like to piggyback off for the doors to their so are so we are business to kind of a different approach. And it's also ties into what Gordon was saying. Our opinion on where the market is at is not a hugely popular opinion amongst AR VR enthusiasts, we, we believe in a much more pragmatic approach, because we do all want the future where we have a tricorder. And we have glasses that look like normal glasses, and we have everything on our face for 8 to 12 hours a day like our watches do. But the reality is, is that a billion devices in the market right now can run AR currently. And if we if we look at wearables as being considered as ready for primetime, I think that's a farce because if you look at the adoption cycle, and then you, you look at where we're really at, we're in the trough of disillusionment, we're starting to climb back out of that, when a lot of the marketing early on was basically showing Minority Report and a lot of gamey kind of feeling when in reality, you when you move into enterprise and you're actually trying to work with their business. You go, okay, are you using SAP? Are you using Oracle? What are you using for your databases where your documentation is stored? And what are the devices? If we were doing Pro with your company, what would that actually look like? It costs five to six thousand, ten thousand people. And then the reality is, is that if you want to build a, and this is just our firm belief, you want to build a practical application that serves AR and also serves their business needs, it needs to be secure. It needs to be easy, and based on design paradigms that these individuals are already used to. And there's a stepping pathway towards what that future of lightweight wearables might look like someday that are OSHA certified. That is that is essentially disposable. If it breaks, it's not three to $5,000 a piece and the battery lasts more than two hours, which with phones and tablets, they do and so you know, we have approached this from a mobile first standpoint, assuming that if the patents that we're reading come to fruition, then the wearable from Apple or Google will actually be a peripheral to the phone and the computer will be in the phone. And that will also continue to drive adoption of phone upgrades and peripherals. And then you would either be able to use the phone or wearable or just the wearable in you that interchangeable, but it would apply to the most amount of people. And I think, unfortunately, you know, like Gordon said, some of the advertising early on really drove the market and in a direction to where we would before we built our product we would have we would do custom projects with Unity and that type of game engine. But the reality is, is that's not easily scalable. It's not a tool you can put in the hands of the end users. So we stopped and then we built everything from the ground up natively. Because tying into third party data sources is much easier and we really had the realization that aggregation of data and providing a toolset for users and empowering them to build their own content is actually where we believe the real value will lie. And it removes us, the technical folks from the loop. And then we serve our customers by trying to improve that toolset for them. But the tool set is based on design paradigms are already familiar with, like WordPress, or like a Facebook, if you know our our mission, when we deliver our product to a new customer is, if you've ever sent a text message or ever sent an email or gone on Facebook from your phone, we want you to be able to use our product. That's and that's primarily due to the fact that when you work in an industrial environment, you have such a wide range of users stemming from those with 34 years of experience to people that have only been in the workforce for a year. So you have technical experience with smartphones and some that don't use the internet at all. And so you have to be able to hit the most amount of people with a practical tool and it is uniquely different than the consumer environment but at the same time If you've ever worked in an enterprise environment where software is just given to you, a lot of times it's kludgy. It's not fun to use, it's a burden, burdensome process to you as an employee to use the software. So we set out to build something that when the when the individual goes on their lunch break, and they go sit in their pickup truck in the parking lot, and they get on Facebook, or Twitter, or Snapchat or whatever it is they're doing, and they enjoy that. And they go back into the work and they have to pick up the audio application, we want them to have a feeling where they go, oh, wow, this is pleasant, and that's unusual. So that's, that's what we aim for in an environment that isn't traditionally thought of as sexy, so to speak.
But Nate in that debate of kind of like form versus function and user testing, you know, function and utility and any any fortune 500 company that wants to enable remote working, you know, there's a lot of back end processes that need to be supported in an immersive it's just, it's a baseline required, but bear with me with this analogy. You know, I started looking into bicycles and bicycle deaths and why why people might die on a bicycle, you know, 50% of those deaths are because people don't wear a helmet. And the reason why people don't wear a helmet is they think they look dorky. And we're kind of we're in the dorky phase, we're in the, you know, puberty phase of immersive technology, right? Like, this device isn't necessarily something that I would walk into the hottest club and put on, right. This is also something that I would want to put on when I'm in a boardroom, at a major company, right. Even mailing this to a prospective client, you know, has a little bit of a hesitancy because maybe they wouldn't want to necessarily put that on, right. I mean, people are willing to risk death death here in America, rather than wear a goofy looking bicycle helmet. So when we ask them to put on these devices, which today are sort of in the, you know, early days of laptops, remember when compact portable computers were like, like suitcases. I mean, they had a big handle. And they were they were big and heavy. We're at that phase. And if we saw anybody, you know, cruising around a car, and they had one of the old cell phones with the wires on them that went to like a little briefcase, and we thought that they were, you know, jerks, right? I mean, they didn't look like they were cool. They're on the phone. But I don't necessarily want to be that person. Right? So we're not quite at the sort of Warby Parker moment for XR, right? That Warby Parker moment when what you're putting on feels designer feels interesting. I mean, yes, we're all locked in our homes. And you know, people are probably wearing their sweatpants right now and everyone's clothes. And maybe right now is a great time for ugly looking text that is really amazing once you put it on to shine, and if there's any moment it should be right now. But we do have a major hurdle to overcome when we're going to get to that point. You know what I mean? We're in the early days of cell phones back when they had a, you know, a lot of buttons on them and things to tweak before we get to some sort of sexy moment when Steve Jobs got on stage and what I tell a lot of my clients or my consultancy is, you know, think about that that day when Steve Jobs got on stage and showed everybody the iPhone and everyone, everyone said, oh my god, what's our mobile strategy? You know, that moment is coming, right? It's not there yet. But for anybody a year before Steve Jobs got on stage started thinking about mobile, they might be ready. How much time will it take for you at your company or for anyone listening to me right now? How long will it take for you to be XR ready? You know, it's not an overnight thing. You're not going to jump into it right now. You need to get your learnings now's a great time to develop. So if I was telling you back in 2005, 2006, you better start thinking about mobile. You know, if you listen to me and start moving on it, you'd be ready. So when Steve Jobs gets on stage and says the iPhone, you wouldn't be getting those scared phone calls from your clients or your boss to say, wait a minute, what's going on? You know, Will our website even work on the iPhone, right? That moment is coming right? So it's that Steve Jobs that will be Tim Cook or somebody else Every single major player has announced that this is, this is the next evolution in computing, right? It's not just the new device, it's an entirely different computer. So everything that we thought about, you know, word for Microsoft Word, whatever this this and this, I have to use it. It's an entirely new computing platform. And have we thought about what that means for our businesses? And are we ready for that? Have we started pilot programs? Have we considered the various devices that are out there? What is applicable and at least to have? You know what I advise all my clients is get a tiger team together, get a group together, this is a great thing everyone's home right now. Who are the right people in your organization to start thinking about this so that a year from now when Tim Cook gets on stage or two years from from now when he does and this sexy device you know, that doesn't look like this? You know, that sexy device looks like these right? Looks like these awesome Raybands that I'm proud to wear on the beach and those offer a an amazing experience. And then yes, 100% of the population or as close to it as we can get whatever the penetration is of mobile phones right now in America, which is damn near close to 100%. That will happen. That's a fait accompli that's, that's without question that'll happen question of when. But are we ready? Right before that time to come?
So yeah, I think that Gordon, you know, something that you just mentioned around adoption and your bicycle helmet metaphor that I think is interesting is at the same time, 50% of people are wearing helmets because they see a clear and present, you know, danger to not wearing it. And I think that motivation is kind of interesting in a time like this, when people are wanting things like connection, I'd love to hear Ben, there's so many interesting use cases that people have been coming to you and to ever coast to explore that, you know, feels like they really could push that kind of adoption and I just love to hear from you more about what those are and you know, what kinds of experiences people are looking to disrupt when they're coming to you?
Yeah, I mean, they're, they're pretty much. So we're horizontal technology. And we've built, you know, we build capture and 3D capture technology to be able for verticals to be able to build on top. And that covers we've been exposed to, you know, through our clients an enormous in a range of different use cases. Telepresence, you know, being able to do this as a, you know, the future of that, where the future the phone booth look like that a lot of these, the alley has done their spaces and all over the corporate America, they're starting to build out these little booths. Entertainment and sports is still you know, is still massive, you know, music sports, and that's both from from a consumer entertainment consumption experience. But also, you know, like I mentioned earlier in terms of in terms of, you know, sort of, you know, fashion and retail is another is another big area in commerce, you know, how do you how do you capture three unique content and look at content and a number of different ways that go beyond just a 2D photo that you'll see on on Amazon. Training and simulation is probably you know, the the second biggest that we get asked about second to sort of telepresence, that that neural bridge that you can connect between, you know, someone you're training and the content that they're trying to consume is, you know, goes goes well beyond, you know what they're going to get from a 2D video. A lot of the consumption that they've been getting even in virtual reality has been, you know, sort of CG content, not very well done CG content or 360 video, neither of which create a truly immersive from our perspective, a truly immersive 3D connection. Health and Medicine is also you know, huge sort of how does how does telemedicine you know, sort of evolve What does training doctors and how to perform surgery look like? You I was on a call earlier today with with Deepak Chopra and his team about how you can connect with you know, a meditative experience and also using visuals. You know, so much meditations often only an audio experience, a lot of his research is showing that, you know, using visuals to combine with the audio, you know enables a much more successful meditative and deeper connection there. So, you know, I mentioned security and monitoring. The other one you know, logistics manufacturer am holding, you know, a LIDAR sensor that fits you know, smaller than the palm of my hand from Intel, they've they've not released these yet. We've gotten our hands on them from Intel, these are incredible. The range and quality of these kinds of devices is shrinking. The ability to add these into manufacturing, logistics, you know, being able to play in factories, these things are all in a sort of miniaturizing you know, we use the other real sense cameras behind us the fourth. This is the, you know, the Microsoft, Azure connect these devices are getting smaller, cheaper, that's you know, these cameras are hundreds of dollars and are going to enable you know, anybody to be able to add, you know, depth 3D reconstruction into their work environments. So really, we just sort of fundamentally believe we're going from a 2D world to a 3D world, whether that's in a virtual reality headset, or on your mobile phone, or on your 2D computer screen. every industry will be touched in some way, you know, by by that by that transition. And there are technologies like 5G, edge computing, we're sort of at this convergence point of, you know, other technologies, 5G, edge computing, machine learning, computer vision, virtual reality, augmented reality, all of that kind of coming together here. And we'll we'll sort of get to a tipping point in the years ahead, where, you know, all of these things that we've been dreaming about are actually reality.
Yeah, and I think we're going to see to Gordon's point. We'll see particularly marketers, and and producers who are shut down right now effectively, take the time to, to really look at how they would implement particularly in experience, experiential marketing, some kind of XR experience because I think we part of the adoption curve has been that it's early adopters. And I think the travel industry of the very wise right now to try and beef up virtual travel experiences far beyond the 360 ones to Ben's point, not fully immersive. It's a nice kind of taste or menu. But I think that that's been problematic for them in terms of what they're looking at. And we're just about to hit a certain curve with experiential marketing. Maybe we'll call it something else next year, but but I think this downtime is is going to yield a lot of things of course, you know, we have a lot of clients who are in the remote production space, some of them are involved in XR, they're certainly seeing a huge uptake in businesses, we see the need for only one camera in the studio and people are dispersed around the world. And that kind of production will I think, increase as sports and and live music comes back. We may not see 30,000 people in an arena but maybe 10,000. So we need to start thinking about that now. And I think that certainly the the this kind of distributed communication is, is going to yield us to ask what's next? I certainly think that the horsepower that we have in our 4G phones, I mean, 5G is great for industrial applications, but carriers are not going to roll it out to consumers for probably another five years. They don't want to cannibalize their 4G revenue now, but it is very useful. Now, that spectrum is very valuable. So yeah, so I think certainly from a production aspect, that's, that's going to yield some benefits in the short term.
I was gonna say one more quick thing. I'll add new york today announced that real estate tours are now considered critical. And so you know, that they had shut down and a lot of places were shutting down real estate tours, and sort of enabling virtual real estate tours. I've got an apartment that I'm trying to run out right now and nobody could come see it. So you know, for some reason New York sort of decided that that's a critical, critical path thing during a during a pandemic like this. But those two, that's another sort of use case that I think, you know, sort of goes along with travel, just being able to, you know, teleport yourself into something and experience something, you know, that you wouldn't be able to.
And in case anyone listening is wondering, we're actually not offering towards the valley, despite that.
What about virtual tours? You want to do a virtual tour?
I just want to go back to Nate's point about the approach perhaps being unpopular around mobile first. I mean, I just I think I'm just going to add that I'm an angel investor. I've invested in, you know, a dozen more companies. And I'm also also worked in venture for a long time. So there's a big difference between this idea of finding technology that scales and then looking at technology that solves a particular problem that you may have. So For example, with some of the companies that I'm working with, I mean, there's looking to solve their own problems, right. So they're not necessarily about whether it scales to a billion dollar company, they just saw, we want to optimize our business, we want to make more money, we want to make better products, and we want to provide a better service. And so I think we're alive on both tracks. In this world of all of these monstrously converging technologies, there was a question about AR and VR, you know, relative to marketing. Well, I mean, again, there are actual tools right now that you can go use, like there's Echo AR, which is a very simple platform that allows you to make 3D collaboratively make 3D digital assets, and then allows you to store them and then distribute them in various a variety of different formats. There are some real structural problems in terms of building out this infrastructure where anyone is going to be able to scale I mean, for starters, what is the format of a 3D digital asset? That's a really tough question right now. And volumetric I believe is the new world, but it takes a lot of juice to put that stuff out into the world. So and a lot of people aren't necessarily going to have access to the type of infrastructure that you need today to access, you know, those technologies, increasingly, we'll see, for sure, but right now, today, there are actual applications that you can be using in your life, whether it's for fun, or it's for work. And I think companies and I know, you know, some of my former VCs, and, you know, they're all looking at the variety of these different applications to see which ones are going to add the most material value, because it's not clear the conversation that we're going to be having in I mean, think about social media 10 years ago, nobody had most of the fortunate, you know, big companies didn't have social media teams, they didn't have them didn't exist now. You couldn't probably name one. Right? And so we are moving along certainly at a pace where today looks real different than it did two years ago and looks like a different universe. Compared to years ago, you know, and this ride that you know, I've been on. So there are access points that exists today, you don't need a headset, you don't have to have sophisticated coding knowledge. You don't have to be a gamer like there are just simple applications that are worth taking a look at in the world. Next reality is a good source for checking those out, like people ask me all the time, well, what do I learn about any of these applications? You know, it seems like the materials so all over the place, there's a newsletter called XR Inside XR, which, you know, on Fridays, it's free, but during the week, you have to pay for it, but they do a really good job of aggregating sort of what's going on our lab, we do a newsletter, which I think is a really good one where we aggregate a lot of information around jobs around applications around companies around startups around speakers, trying to track the evolution of this among the many, many, many stakeholders. So that's our lab dot NYC. And I would encourage anyone to check that out who's looking for some guidance around what's happening on a weekly basis, and we're agnostic, I mean, we're a nonprofit. And so my job in the world is to help people think about these applications and how they might apply in their in their life period. So I don't have any skin in the game in any particular type. But I just see that it's a really broad swath and people just don't seem to understand that there are all of these applications. They're little baby ones, and they're, it's very early in the game, but they exist and they can really be helpful and are really fun to you, as well as the premium experiences with the headsets which are astronomical. I mean, I didn't bring my quest. I'm with you, Noelle. I, you know, I left the city. And I don't even have I mean, it's ridiculous. I'm up. upstate, I have no VR headset. I'm like, what was I thinking? You know, but now I'm rediscovering myself some of these many applications that are super fun. And so I would encourage you know, those of you who are sitting at home and think well, I don't have a headset well, but there are all these other things that you can definitely check out and that are very interesting. And that will really prepare you for these next gen or this next level experiences and engagement when you know we get through this terrible situation we're in right now.
And if you have one solution to recommend to people at home, you know, I think we have some people like the very wide audience here, right? Some people are very, very deep in this field. And then we've got other people who, you know, maybe are more like my mom, we're like, she's on Google Maps on the Oculus, and she knows what Snapchat filters are, but like, she doesn't really understand that. That AR is something aside from the Snapchat filter that turns my face into a puppy.
But I mean, all space VR is great for all this and I think everybody should check it out. In fact, Gordon, you want to tell tell him what we're doing tomorrow.
But you need a headset for that, don't you?
Yeah, well, yeah. No, I think you can do it actually on on desktop. And, you know, one of the things that I believe very strongly is that for us, for we who are practitioners in the industry is that we have to really be in it right? So we can't just get on Zoom. And tell everybody watching here, you know how great these headsets are. So we're actually throwing a party for members of the VR AR Association tomorrow in all space and we're doing it as a pizza party. It's a virtual party, but real pizza so all the members, I'm gonna send them all a pizza, we're all gonna get together from five to 9pm tomorrow night. People will be if they have their headsets be in the headset. But if you have a desktop computer, you can you know, you can experience 360 Media just fine as a click and drag experience. Anyone who's done Google Maps knows.
Domino's still delivers.
Domino's will deliver contactless to your doors so you know there's a lot of fun ways I think that companies out there right now we're thinking about using this technology today can do so free just like we're a lot of us are doing on Zoom. And you can do that you could do a virtual pizza party for your employees right now today whether they have a headset or not. They all face and you know jumping off of what you know, Adaoris was saying, you know, other ways to get connected. Certainly the VR AR Association, whether you're a practitioner or just want to stay connected, we have over 27,000 professionals working in the field as members, over 50 chapters and 100 staff around the world, over 4200 organizations, companies, brands, universities, all taking place as a having that conversation within the association with regular phone calls happening weekly, where people are getting together and sharing information, as well as you know, meet up with them. And like Chris said, pizza party.
That's terrific. And I apologize to our attendees that I didn't send all of you a pizza personally, but we'll get there. Nate, did you want to weigh in on that?
Yeah, so actually, we we typically work in the enterprise space, but I think given what's going on right now, what is interesting, I mean, everyone has seen like the the unemployment filing numbers. I mean, it's almost 10 million people in the last couple weeks. I think what that what that does is emphasize that people can't go into their jobs one, but it doesn't mean that these individuals don't have things they know about. And so what we what we've done is starting today we've opened up our audio connect video calling application for anyone to sign up for, for the next 90 days, you can sign up anytime and inside the next three months and we'll give you three months for free and I give the URL ario.com. And what's important to us is kind of twofold. One obviously like people will view it as philanthropically capitalist, right. But but in reality right now, people are at home like we've been talking about. And this is a mobile experience. So if you have an iPhone, and soon an Android phone, you can use it and maybe it's my father is in his early to mid 70s. I can't he lives five blocks away, I can't go see him. And last night at 10 o'clock, he wanted me to help him fix his mail, his email, and I couldn't. Unfortunately, he hadn't installed the app on his phone yet, but I would have to do it. Right But that would be a perfect use case. I'd be like, show me what you're looking at now with point to him what, what I can help them with. And I think what we're what we're most interested in is obviously letting people do whatever they want with it. But it will be a learning experience for people that have ever experienced AR. And it will be a learning experience for us to understand maybe what use cases we're not seeing and don't know about that our consumer and are open to everyone. And you know, why our business models very, you know, emphasize and focusing on enterprise businesses. The reality is, is that anybody can benefit from this. And, you know, a door was saying she's stuck where she has thought, a VR headset, we're all kind of stuck with whatever we have right now. We're, we're in survival mode. And that's why we've opened it up. And we're just excited to hear the stories of how people use it. So we would extend the invitation to anybody to go to Ario, ario.com and check it out. And if you submit the form, you're going to talk to someone on our team within the next 24 hours. They'll get you on boarded and set you all up and we'll support you.
We're gonna we're support you, we're all going to download it today.
Oh, yeah, please do come break it. We're very excited.
I look forward to it.
And what are you giving away Ben? Are you gonna give anything away?
I don't know.
Avatars? Really? We had some good questions about avatars. Can you help people create low poly avatars?
We can help people create high poly avatars. We do have superheroes out there.
So getting them to help me make a hologram of my dog.
I think this is a good business.
Yeah, we got it. We captured our first dog. Noel a couple weeks ago as a military dog.
What did you do to this dog?
We didn't do anything to the dog Chris.
We had a slobbering dog in our interview. Have cameras and reconstructed the dog for a number of different purposes for for military life really law enforcement application.
They use they used to have a cool website where they honored the dog of the week. Might when my wife was a partner in a law firm. You know, she was doing a lot of that work, she'd have to go on to this Customs and Border Protection site. And this is before the bushes took over. In the good old days, they'd have a dog that they would honor and say, you know, Fido sniffed out five tons of cocaine. He got an extra bone in his in his bowl. And, you know, I could see them doing that virtually. Yeah.
I wish my dog could do anything close to that. So I know we're running short on time. I'd love to do one last kind of roundtable question for you guys. We have gotten a lot of questions on this topic generally. But we'll be kind of specific about the prompt, which is, when we're all together again and five years doing this panel, hopefully not during a pandemic, what will be different? Will we still be in little Zoom boxes? Or will we be using AR VR to in some way, you know, shift this experience? Will I be ordering pizza for everyone? So we'll do the same order. We did our intros and start with Nate.
Yeah so I actually, I err on the side of it's going to be a mixture. I think that we're going to see an interoperability of ability to people be in this call. We won't all be on Zoom as we see it now in 2D boxes. Maybe. Chris is coming in on his Oculus and maybe a door is coming in on a tablet. Hello has the has LIDAR facing so just her faces coming in. Maybe maybe Gordon is on a plane somewhere. And maybe Ben is standing in a studio and he's you know, being projected next to, you know, to my computer or you know, whatever is being protected for I think it can be a variety of mediums. And I think that's what's interesting about what's going on. Adaora said, there's all these entry points and on ramps to the technology, I think at some point, you're going to see them intertwine. And it's not going to be all one way. I think there's gonna be some interoperability standards that have to emerge for that to happen. But I think that's what's interesting about it, because then it's, it truly is, the form meets the function of where you're at in your day, and where you're coming in from on your call. Because right now, we all have to use it the same way. That's just how it works. But in the future, I think it's how you use it, how you use it best, and when you use it best and where you are, and that has to fit the context. So that's just my opinion.
Yeah, totally. Gordon.
You know, I think this is a this is a really inflection point for the immersive industry. I think there's a lot of eyes on this industry to solve the problem that's facing the country. I think that, you know, in the near term, certainly, you know, 5G, the advent of 5G is going to make a massive difference with this technology and solving a lot of the shortcomings in terms of graphic capabilities, because we're gonna be offloading those capabilities from the device itself to the cloud. And so we're gonna be rendering real, very realistic environments. You know, I think for co working in immersive, you know, we want the boardroom not necessarily a bonfire circle on a beach with low poly. And so everything that you know, Ben's doing, and Nate's working on, you know, a lot of these, a lot of these platforms are ready for plot for primetime. And as soon as 5G comes in, I think we're going to see the kind of graphics that people are expecting to see that, frankly, the industry has been marketing to are coming and it will come. And so we have a really great future ahead of us in just the next couple of years. In the meantime, certainly anybody and everybody who's working from home, you know, even before this of IRS, you know, 74% of workers wanted to have working from home as a perk, whereas just 3.4% of the US workforce are working remotely that's before this. Right? So we see we're seeing a massive shift where a lot of people wanted it. Very few people had easy access to working remotely. And now, basically, everybody's working from home and doing the best they can. I think it's an exciting time for this technology, and certainly is a major topic of conversation for those of us in the association and elsewhere. So I really encourage anybody listening to this at home or wherever you are, to dive in right now. And to dispel the myth that in order to experience immersive that you actually need the device, you can experience it just right on your desktop. And it's a great way to get your feet wet to understand its capabilities. Obviously putting on the headset is a different feeling emotionally. But again, you know, we can never replace the simple face to face meeting right with technology, but we can get it Closest weekend and the closest we can get to that is through immersive technology. Way better than Zoom. We can eliminate the mysterious heavy breathing on mass mass dial ins, you have proximity so that when you're near someone you can hear them when you're far away from them, you can't. There's a lot of amazing benefits to meeting in an immersive there's a much higher attention rate 25% more attention when people are meeting in XR. You can you know, sketch an XR you can interact in XR, you can have your really magic powers that people don't have, let's say even on the zoom. And so as not to mention just major cost savings for any corporation looking at this on an enterprise scale. If you think of the reduction in travel, you think of the reduction in office costs, physical office space, you have unlimited power within the digital realm to create the office working environment you want so certain for a lot of the companies that we've mentioned, I invite everybody to, to, to reach out to them and to start playing now because it's time is coming.
Yeah, jump in there real quick because I have to, I need to I need to run. But I just want to just cosign everything Nate just said, which is, I think in five years, I think right now, we're really gonna, opening the floodgates to a lot of experimentation and a lot of thinking very, very seriously about these new technologies, whether it's just people at home trying fun ways, all the way through the enterprise applications, I think we get closer to this full realization of Internet of Things, because voice is such an important component of this. And you know, we're all making all sorts of guesses around what some of the big tech companies are doing and how they're integrating like a watch and a headset, you know, and glasses and you know, in their device, and so, there's going to be some combination of applications that I don't even think that we can imagine right now, sitting here, but I do think we're going to see a real rise in the use of these technologies. Facial computing future interfaces and 3D technology and a real and fundamental way where it's going to be far more ubiquitous in five years than it is today. And I think it will be mobile. And I think it will be through various devices, it'll be voice activated. And they'll be all of these components that work today. And then they'll be put together in a variety of different ways that will change the way that we think about certain things that we do or provide opportunity for us to be able to do things that we can't easily do today. I want to thank all of you. It was really fascinating to hear your thoughts. And I want to thank Noelle for inviting me and I wish you all well, and I'll be well in real life, so stay safe.
Hi, unfortunately, I think we're over for time, so we're gonna have to wrap there. But thank you again to our amazing panelists. You guys have been so entertaining and informative spent a really great dialogue and thank you to our participants, especially the ones who are still hanging on at four minutes after the hour. So definitely check out everybody's you know, incredible works as a real All Star panel and we'll see you all soon. Take care.
Thanks for that, Kevin. Thank you.
Thanks Noelle. Take care everyone.